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Are you getting enough protein in a raw vegan diet?
© haraldwalker
Few subjects are more confusing in the field of nutrition than the question of protein so I wanted to look into this whole protein issue and maybe bust some myths surrounding it.
Firstly we hear a lot of justification for veganism in raw food circles, coming from the idea that gorillas or cows or any vegan creature having massive strength from just eating grass or leaves or whatever.
Another argument that is closely related to the first one is that vegetation contains a lot of protein… high 40’s even 50+% is quoted…
In addition, we sometimes see a misrepresentation of the raw vegan diet by using facts and figures of cooked vegan diets containing beans, lentils, tofu and so-on… So the argument for veganism is used to justify raw veganism but these are two different diets…
Raw — long term problems?
Whilst I’m a massive fan of the raw vegan diet in terms of allowing our amazingly complex bodies to heal from all sorts of nasty diseases — and Lord knows it’s where my heart is — I have read a lot of concerning information about failure of this diet in the long term.
The justification for raw veganism in term of protein just does not add up, so let’s look at some of the issues.
Our closest living primate cousins, the bonobo, eats a lot of fruit, certainly one study group of bonobos eats the largest percentage in their diet of fruit of all the primates. But they also eat a lot of THV… vegetation to you and me.
Now it seems to me that they’ve got all day to munch away on whatever they fancy, bask in the sun, have lots of sex (which they do — with anything and everything).
Busy lives
We, however, are busy people and give ourselves maybe 10 minutes to gulp our meals down so as not to interrupt our important schedules. Point is that bonobos spend a lot of time eating THV, which we do not. They also eat approximately 5% of their diet as animal foods, which of course raw vegans do not.
The same is more true for certain types of gorillas who eat huge amount of vegetation. All probably around 50% protein, let’s say for argument. Since they eat very little else except vegetation we can assume that they get up to 50% of their calories from protein.
That’s a whole lot more than the 10% figure often quoted for raw vegan diets, so I think we need to stop using the gorilla’s massive strength as justification for a raw vegan diet.
Gorillas eat a whole lot more than half a bag of spinach and watercress salad from Sainsbury’s! Which is about as much as I can manage in one sitting and I’m a hardened salad eater… no dressing or anything!
Evolution
The evolution story goes something like this…
We left the jungle canopies and started scavenging the brains and bone marrow of dead things… yum! This we were able to do due to our expert manipulation abilities. Of course, this may be hypothesis but bear with me.
The theory goes that because these brains are basically made of fat, these fats allowed the rapid development of our own brains. As we moved into hunting as well, the co-operation needed to hunt caused further changes in our behavior and we became more social in our feeding habits, sharing food and so-on.
You don’t see this behavior in fruit and veg-eating primates… why bother?
So it seems to me that we humans exchanged THV — vegetation — as a protein source to meat and animal foods as a protein and fat source. This theory at least has a sound rational basis. This freed up huge amounts of time that would otherwise be spent munching to invent stuff like wheels and spears and eventually even to draw stuff on cave walls. Excuse the flippancy but you take the point.
How much salad?
I read a daily analysis of protein in a raw diet the other day by an author that I respect but in that one day, we see 500g of salad leaves. This might not mean a lot to you but believe me this is a huge amount. As I mentioned, I can manage about 50-60g in one sitting. To my mind, very few people are going to eat this diet…
Look on the back of your salad packet and work out how much protein you would get if you ate the whole bag… not a lot I can tell you and that’s if you eat all of it. Yes, veg gets roughly half its calories from protein but the fact is there aren’t many calories, and so next-to-no protein!
In fact the dietary analysis I mentioned contains a huge amount of food and even with 500g of leaves still only manages to provide half my protein needs if I use traditional wisdom for this figure. The oft-quoted minimum requirement by the World Health Organisation (WHO) would not be enough for active people doing sports.
Body efficiency
Now I do accept that when eating raw foods and food combining, the body becomes much more efficient and so needs somewhat less protein, but because of this increased efficiency I will be consuming far fewer total calories. So the 10% protein figure often quoted as the protein amount you can get on a raw diet is only 10% of say 60% of a cooked, uncombined diet in terms of calories.
For example, I need approx. 2200 cals if I eat a cooked mixed diet and approx. 1400 eating a raw vegan diet based on my own experience — a massive increase in efficiency I’m sure you’ll agree…
Now 10% of 2200 is 220 cals of protein or 55g. This would be an extremely low figure for an active sportsman on a “normal” diet but anyway… Let’s assume the vegans are right and 10% protein is what we need.
10% of 1400 calories is 140 or 35g of protein… you see the problem in talking percentages? Let’s keep it to actual grams then we won’t get confused. This 35g is about 1/3 of what I need looking at most sports science sources although opinions do differ. You can see why I am concerned.
Protein alternatives
To add to the weight of evidence against raw veganism as sustainable, we see that the spiritual diets of the essenes who I greatly respect include raw dairy products and essene bread made of sprouted grains, which have useful protein.
This is a solution to the fact that biologically we no longer can eat THV for our protein if indeed we wish to be vegetarian. The extra dairy plus other vegan sources of protein I think allows the body to just about get away with it. I saw on TV the other day an old Indian guru who eats only fruit, nuts and milk… He was in his 80’s and looked in great shape.
A diet cannot only be evaluated on how you feel right now and there is no doubt that a raw vegan diet makes you feel amazing in the short term… It’s easy to see why folks are so convinced that they have found the answer to their dietary prayers. But the evidence is mounting in my mind at least that this diet is not sustainable in the long term.
In addition, a given dietary philosophy can only be 100% tested and verified over several generations… “Pottenger’s Cats” tells us that.
I have also read other accounts within the natural hygiene movement that problems in the diet didn’t show up until the 3rd generation. Is it really worth risking health over the sake of some protein? A puritanical philosophical stance is very worrying to me. It speaks of obsession.
Long term raw vegan Virginia Vetrano has written a book urging all raw vegans to eat nuts every day and I can see why! However I’m pretty sure that nuts don’t contains all the essential amino acids that we need… but I’d need to look into that.
Also I notice that raw power guru Stephen Arlin now has a protein supplement on the market! Enough said.
I don’t want to upset raw vegans… I have found raw vegans to be lovely, warm, sensitive and life-loving people. In my heart I’m raw vegan and I will probably end up with a diet more akin to the essene one which will satisfy my heart and my mind.
This is my 2 pennies worth… if it makes sense to you, then great. However, I’m also interested in the nay sayers — if you have another rational viewpoint then please feel free to leave a comment below.
The bottom line — Know your protein needs in term of grams/day and ensure you get it.
If, like me, you’re concerned that a raw vegan diet may be a bridge too far, please try the Habit Guide diet. It’s a big step back to eating natural human foods, has lots of raw fruits and vegetables and will make sure your protein needs are taken care of.
All the best,
Mike Kinnaird
Habit Guide: How to be Happy & Healthy
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As you know, i’ve recently had a full recovery from CFS (chronic fatigue syndrome). I have noticed, that as soon as I start to include protein foods in my diet i.e. nuts, dairy, eggs, or grains (more than one serving a day) my symptoms return.
After 2 days on a diet of only fruit and vegetables i am back to normal health again. I would also like to add that i have eaten a very low protein diet for 6 months now and myself and others have noticed an increase in the muscle mass of my legs.
A raw vegan diet seems plausable nutritionally as long as care is taken, as with all diets, but socially its not so easy, this to me is the only downfall if you are indeed looking for a ‘dietary model’ to follow.
I personally, would be very careful to pin the failure of this diet on lack of protein, but rather lack of balanced vegetation, lack of calories, lack of fat, too many nuts, and/or too much fruit acid.
I know one raw vegan who eats only pears and hazelnuts all day long, and with the obsessive nature of some raw vegans, I can see why there are failures.
Karen Wood and Karen Knowler to take 2 examples, are long term raw foodists, who have continued faith in a raw vegan diet and in appearance and mind, seem very healthy people.
Too add, for all you spiritualists out there, Rudolf Steiner predicts by the 6th epoch, there will be no more meat-eating (grin grin)!
Forgot to add… for those who cannot face salads, juicing is an easy way to get those much important veggies in your diet – add tamari, cayenne, seasalt, and/or coconut milk if you’re not keen on the flavour.
I would say, and this has been shown on Gillian Mckeith’s programme, once you start cleaning up your diet, cravings for fruit and vegetables become normal and appetite increases.
So yeah, humans emerged from the jungle and started eating dead corpses, hunting, and eventually farming and drinking mamary secretions from cows. They did so out of survival!! Not thrival!
If you have problems eating 500 grams of greens in a day, you should try working on that for optimum health. I eat that much easily in 2 smoothies sweetened with fruit – not in a salad saturated in a fatty dressing.
There are many rationalizations that can go along with transitioning to a low fat raw vegan diet. We are addicted to fats, and the excito-toxins we use to add flavour to our grains and lentils.
All the best on your raw journey.
“Survival not thrival”
Ha ha love it! 250g of leaves in one smoothie — now that I’d like to see. Please send pics :-)
The truth is that you have to go back 6 or 7 million years to get to the point in human ancestry that ate like modern day chimps and bonobos.
The ‘Homo’ genus has always included animal foods.
I’m not saying we couldn’t or shouldn’t replicate the diet of old — it has many many benefits but for me just now the numerous problems, theoretical and practical mean that I’d rather take the line of ‘near enough is good enough’ and hedge my bets.
I agree about the cow secretions — or in fact, the secretions of any other mammal.
We need more data dammit!! Come on you scientists! The best science I’ve seen to date on natural human diets was when the BBC put a load of folks in a zoo and fed them an ape diet for a few days! This is the 21st century people! We need to do better. People are DYING to know the truth!
Excellent article mike thanks, just saw it on hollys blog, how are you doing! x ruth.
Hi Ruth!
Thanks for the thumbs up on the article. I’m doing great thanks :-) Hope all is well with you too.
M x
Nice post! And best wishes to you on your raw food journey.
I’ve been a “high raw” vegan since August 2005 and 100% raw since November 2008, so i’m always doing research online to get more information.
I’m going for 100 days at 100% raw right now and I’m on day 68. And so far I’m feeling pretty spectacular!
As far as protein goes, I admit there needs to be more cutting edge research that documents raw vegans and their protein needs.
The big research thing I’d like to see is in Enzymes, because raw vegans continually promote the fact that enzymes ARE amino acids and there’s more of an abundance of enzymes in raw foods compared to cooked, supposedly.
I think that in the end, each person’s dietary journey is a personal one. You have to go by what you feel daily, what works and what doesn’t work. It’s a process of continual research and re-discovery to be able to experience the best health possible in a world full of additives, chemicals, pesticides, processed and genetically modified foods.
The more I do research, the more it seems to be that we need to definitely eat mostly plant foods, raw, organic and wholesome…
Hi Randomguru!
Congrats on your raw food achievements and a very cool looking website! Well done.
I don’t believe it’s enough to go by how you feel daily. As I’m sure you know, the human body has many reserves and you won’t necessarily feel anything until way too late.
The acid test for any diet is how it performs over several generations.
Your research WILL lead you down that path because they all reference each other — led by the China Study sitting at the moment on top of the heap.
There are credible nay-sayers if you care to look. A good place to start is the amazing debate between Colin Campbell in the blue corner and Loren Cordain in the red corner. A fascinating debate that if nothing else, shows how far we are from a resolution to the dietary dilemmas that impact us.
Feeling good now means very little actually. You will feel just the same if you were on a drip for 3 weeks. But there are folks who were just as excited as you that ended up very sick or worse.
I take my hat off to the raw food pioneers — I’m one of them I guess since I did it for 6 months, but the mainstream world isn’t ready for raw just yet. There are many problems to be ironed out before that can happen.
The ultimate diet I believe will be some some of raw diet but we need science and that aint happening. And I mean proper science — i.e. not funded by those with vested interests.
I also believe that before you can make a rational decision about something as important as this, you have to listen to both sides of the argument. Researching only one side is bound to convince your brain that a raw vegan diet is all there is to natural human nutrition because you’re not hearing anything else :-)
I’m glad your feeling great, that’s a wonderful feeling and I’ve been there on raw. For me, for now, all I can say is it’s an amazing tool for healing and that the ultimate diet will be close to that but long term there are too many folks getting sick and even dying.
We need more answers in my view before raw can make the leap from the pioneers to the mainstream.
God bless ya and good luck!
Amazing…everything you’re writing…i agree and thought about it before..specially the protein part…the essenes…i came across ur website by “chance”
best regards
Elie
Meeting protein needs is not difficult to attain at all, I would say the issues people should watch out for (this is not just on a raw diet) are food combining, excess overt fats (clogging, acidic), lack of variety, produce quality, eating when hungry, enough sleep, enough exercise (hence greater food intake, more nutrients, macro and micro). .8g/kg is RDA/WHO requirement..with built in doubled safeguards based on denatured heated animal proteins. Melons have a ton, greens you can build your way up, even healing from colitis I’ve eaten a lb of spinach raw straight from the bag at farmers markets walking around. Juicing greens/certain veggies can be an adjunct while you work your way up (or heal certain conditions) or just to add to it (way less time than cooking a meal that’s for sure). Really, your evolutionary evidence is just theory, and there are several theories that say otherwise, about evidence. There is so much science, logic, physiology, anatomy, and experience to the raw vegan high fruit low fat diet. Of course some say oh just do lots of fresh fruit and veg don’t worry as much about the rest, well your instincts will shift naturally but any amount of excitotoxins (salt, many spices) and refined foods throw off a diet. There is a huge shift that happens when this is followed 100%, emotional eating can fall away, psychologically disordered aspects of eating can vanish, your absorption increases, the body is able to eliminate toxins and work on old issues.
Oh and check out the book “Left in the Dark” for newer theories on brain expansion and our diets. Might suprise you =)
You lost me when you mentioned “milk”. As vegans don’t drink milk I wonder what other mistakes you have made.
Hi Eliza,
I didn’t say vegans drink milk. I pointed to the fact that the Essenes do — as evidence that a raw vegan diet may not be sustainable in the long term for everybody. Many people have run into health problems with raw veganism in the long term.
I live overseas and do not have access to non-vegetarian sources of protein other than fruits, seeds, nuts,and vegetables. I could eat cheese and bread, but would prefer to be raw vegan. I’ve been worrying about protein, but according to this article I could be in trouble. I just can’t imagine that I’d have to eat meat, but there are no alternatives here. I have no choices.
Currently sitting in the office at work where i’m nearly through the 500g of Spinach i’ve been grazing on for the last 90 minutes. I think of them as crisp (potato chip) replacements in a way, rather than sitting down to a ‘meal’.
Finance for me is the biggest problem with going raw.
Currently the core of my diet consists of
500g of greens (spinach, watercress, kale, broccoli etc)
2kg of carrots, juiced (about a pint of juice) a day mixed with 35g Chlorella, 65g Spirulina
5 bananas a day
40g of Sun-Dried Tomatoes
75g of Hemp, Sunflower, Flax, Pumpkin and Sesame Seed
4 apples
I will also eat plenty of onion and garlic, and I do eat beans every day (about 50g before soaking)
and then ill try to add in some other veggies, fruits, berries etc when i can afford it.
Perhaps not the ideal way to go but plenty of protein in the lot (and if you actually look at the amino acid profile im far exceeding my daily needs)
The seeds i use mainly for essential fatty acids (in roughly a 1:1 ratio) and to round of proper mineralisation.
But then I do also use a good multivitamin (mainly for B12 tbh) aswell as taking enzymes daily.
I dont know if raw will turn out the way to go in 3-4 generations down the line, but looking at the state of the UK at the minute I reckon I’m seeing the 3rd-4th generation of the Modern Western diet, and that clearly isn’t the way to go.
Good article! The protein question is a big one for (potential) raw foodists, and you’ve handled it nicely. That said – one way I get all those protein-rich leafy greens into my diet is by tossing them into a green smoothie that I have for breakfast every morning (for several years now). I weighed it once – half a pound of spinach is pretty much typical for my smoothies.
I’ve just written an article for my blog about protein / raw-food, and included a link to your article:
http://www.raw-food-guide.com/protein
Watch “Forks Over Knives”. This will answer most of your protein questions. Being vegan or raw vegan has nothing to do with gorillas. It has to do what the human body is designed for, plain & simple. I’ve seen cancer reversed in two of my family members by juicing veggies, fruits & going on a whole foods plant based diet. I have rid myself of numerous skin conditions & reversed fatty liver by cutting out meat, dairy & going to a whole foods plant based diet, I am vegan & mostly raw. I am vegan in winter & raw in the summer. I have never looked & felt so great in my life. Before this I use to pound the protein powder, eat eggs, milk & meat. I also lived in the gym, thinking I was healthy… I was NOT. Once I cut out the things that my body was not designed for, I began to thrive. Both of my doctors were against my new found diet, they kept telling me everything in moderation. They asked me to take numerous lab tests to prove their points. All of my test results have greatly improved & are very healthy since I started my raw/vegan lifestyle. Plus I get a ton of compliments now, which I never got while I was pounding protein. We only need what our kidneys & other organs can take. Give them a break for once in their lives and try a whole foods-plant based diet.
I forgot to add that during the summer when I am 100% raw i am a fruity, 97% fruit, 3%greens, nuts & seeds. All of my blood/lab work comes out great each time. I do lab work twice a year to prove my point to the naysayers of going raw or being vegan. Plus the energy you have, especially being raw is sooo pure, I can go all day & night. I’ve never ran so many fun runs in my life. I can contain my chronic hive, eczema & all my other conditions I suffered on a high protein diet. For me LFRV has changed my life. I have people asking me for help, wanting to know how to change their diets. The proof is in the FRUIT & VEGGIES.
It’s hard to avoid getting enough protein on any sort of plant-based diet. It’s hard for humans to get enough calories from just vegetables because humans are specifically adapted to a starchy diet. I discount the argument that we have to eat fatty foods to grow a proper brain because populations that eat low-fat diets have perfectly normal brains. http://www.gorillaprotein.com/protein_deficiency.html
Hi Laurie,
That’s a great article and I love your website. I was aware of all the stuff you mention there but it occurs to me that it’s all evidence that is not definitive. It’s kind of “many of the good arguments for why we may not need animal protein” but I don’t see any real science, and hard proof. Certainly, I could make an extremely convincing argument that we need MORE protein. In fact, this debate has been had…. by Colin Campbell and Loren Cordain (China Study vs Paleo) in a paper entitled “The Great Protein Debate” which I’ll be happy to forward to you if you’re interested. It’s an absolutely fascinating debate.
It’s also unclear right now what the effect of racial groups has on nutrition. Even a big vegan activist I heard say “Some people may be obligate carnivores, we just don’t know.” So the whole protein issue has much more to it than the very interesting arguments mentioned in your article. I hope science gets to the bottom of it soon (not likely, because who would fund it) and I do hope humans can live optimally without the need for animal foods. That would be wonderful.
Realistically, right now, we have bigger fish to fry. Our diets are so out of whack. I don’t think that a small amount of animal protein is a problem, especially if it’s from a healthy animal living a healthy life. But the dietary insults we subject our bodies to are much worse than consuming some animal foods.
Your website features gorillas which is also a bit naughty, since bonobos are our closest cousins. If we are to look to nature for clues we would look to bonobos in the first instance no? And they do eat around 5% of their diet as animal foods. If we did the same, honestly, there would be no problem.
Hello!
First of all, I would like to say great article, and great comments! I am a beginner raw veganist (literally today is my first official day) and while this info is great, I would really appreciate it if someone could write a starter guide. For instance try eating x amount of greens today etc. I’ve been findng it really difficult to get the nutrients I need, simply because I am not aware of recipes, food intake etc. I would really appreciate it if you could write an article, or recommend one. Thanks a bunch!
Hi Jessica,
I don’t recommend raw vegan long term for lots of reasons so probably I’m the wrong person to ask :-) I did follow a raw diet for 6 months though to heal from chronic illness. The diet I instinctively moved towards was the same as Doug Graham now teaches in his book 80/10/10… two fruit meals and more fruit plus large salad/nuts in the evening. So you might want to check that book out.
As I said though, I would urge extreme caution for the long term, and despite what you might read, definitely take a b-12 supplement. The Vegan Society website has a good raw article describing the amount of each food needed daily and you’ll see, it’s a formidable list… you’ll see why I don’t recommend it, this is not a diet that most people will do. And even for those who will do it, there are many question marks in my mind about it.
Short term, it’s a fantastic cleansing and healing diet but please, research both sides to be sure you’re fully informed before making serious health decisions. The website beyondveg, although quite heavy going, has all the counter arguments as to why raw vegan might not be optimal.
I do think LOTS of raw food is a great idea, but I’m just not sure we’re ready to throw the baby out with the bath water just yet.
All the best and good luck with your research,
Mike.
For those of you looking for more guidance about the 80-10-10 Diet Book you can go to http://www.30bananasaday.com there is a whole community and movement towards this diet.
Cheers!
So long as we consume a variety of nuts, grains, legumes, veggies and fruits, we should be in the clear because our bodies are fully capable of combining the different amino acids to form their own proteins.
Though there is little substantial evidence to support it, my heart is with the raw diet. However, I do believe you should include this in your article: When our foods are cooked, whether they be meats, vegetables, or beans, the proteins within them are denatured.
I believe that this one argument alone is reason enough to agree that eating raw foods will provide the human body with more useable nutrients than cooked foods.
Hi Brittany, I’m with you in that my heart is with raw foods and I do think it’s the future. HOWEVER, you don’t hear much about the failures to stay with raw foods and there have been MANY people who believed in it, who wanted it to work but it didn’t. So, we need to know WHY. The truth is that every other animal, every other life-form eats raw, that is FACT. So something is wrong somewhere. It may be as simple as a B12 problem or it maybe because of not enough calories or because supermarket fruit is NOT wild fruit, it has more sugar, less minerals and less protein in general than wild fruit. It maybe because there’s not enough protein.
So… Raw is NOT to be recommended right now because we don’t have all the data, we don’t have a reliable way of making it work. In the future, I think it will happen, but that future is a good way off because we need GOOD science, i.e. not funded by people with an agenda, and so we’re not getting any science because there’s no independent funding.
We have to come at this nutrition problem from the angle of “what is a natural diet for humans” and go from there. That’s the only sane angle but that is not happening either.
~ Mike
It’s silly to worry about proteins being “denatured” by cooking. They get also get denatured and even digested by the acid and enzymes in the stomach and intestines.
The fact that proteins can be denatured by cooking can actually be a good thing. I know people who have such bad allergies that they can’t eat any fruit unless it’s cooked.
That’s interesting Laurie, thanks. Not heard that argument before.